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	<title>Comments on: The Case for Junky Closers</title>
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	<description>Fantasy Baseball Advice</description>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/the-case-for-junky-closers/comment-page-1/#comment-24173</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 02:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=3756#comment-24173</guid>
		<description>hahaha great post</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hahaha great post</p>
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		<title>By: Lou P</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/the-case-for-junky-closers/comment-page-1/#comment-22725</link>
		<dc:creator>Lou P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=3756#comment-22725</guid>
		<description>I am all for the avoidance of elite closers, especially in auction leagues.  They go for insane amounts of money, and the low end of the spectrum closers end up going for peanuts at the end of the draft.  You could have Borowski and a $20 batter instead of Papelbon.  Why would you not do that?  Some $20 players off of Rudy;s sheet - John Lackey, Ian Kinsler, Russell Martin, Aram Ramirez, etc.   45 saves plus one of these people are much more valuable then Paps.  Sure, you might lose a point or two in ERA, but you would gain more elsewhere while standing pat in saves.

The only time this is real problem is in leagues with severe restrictions on FA movement.  If you can&#039;t freely swap closers by raiding the waiver wire, you need to pay for a good one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am all for the avoidance of elite closers, especially in auction leagues.  They go for insane amounts of money, and the low end of the spectrum closers end up going for peanuts at the end of the draft.  You could have Borowski and a $20 batter instead of Papelbon.  Why would you not do that?  Some $20 players off of Rudy;s sheet &#8211; John Lackey, Ian Kinsler, Russell Martin, Aram Ramirez, etc.   45 saves plus one of these people are much more valuable then Paps.  Sure, you might lose a point or two in ERA, but you would gain more elsewhere while standing pat in saves.</p>
<p>The only time this is real problem is in leagues with severe restrictions on FA movement.  If you can&#8217;t freely swap closers by raiding the waiver wire, you need to pay for a good one.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/the-case-for-junky-closers/comment-page-1/#comment-22714</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=3756#comment-22714</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22686&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;BigFatHippo&lt;/a&gt;:  LOL that would be pretty tough to do since owning him was like owning two mid tier closers....  Only way you could lose with KROD is if he was your ONLY closer.  And i got KROD inthe 7th great value, but I wanted HAMMY and was going to take him as my 8th pick but the snake behind me took him right after KROD, i&#039;d have def&#039;ly grabbed him in the 7th if i knew he&#039;d blow up like he did!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-22686" rel="nofollow">BigFatHippo</a>:  LOL that would be pretty tough to do since owning him was like owning two mid tier closers&#8230;.  Only way you could lose with KROD is if he was your ONLY closer.  And i got KROD inthe 7th great value, but I wanted HAMMY and was going to take him as my 8th pick but the snake behind me took him right after KROD, i&#8217;d have def&#8217;ly grabbed him in the 7th if i knew he&#8217;d blow up like he did!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/the-case-for-junky-closers/comment-page-1/#comment-22708</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:57:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=3756#comment-22708</guid>
		<description>Baron - email me about the RCL...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Baron &#8211; email me about the RCL&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: BigFatHippo</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/the-case-for-junky-closers/comment-page-1/#comment-22686</link>
		<dc:creator>BigFatHippo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=3756#comment-22686</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22685&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Baron Von Vulturewins&lt;/a&gt;: That&#039;s an interesting point.

Did anyone out there own K-Rod last year and not win saves?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-22685" rel="nofollow">Baron Von Vulturewins</a>: That&#8217;s an interesting point.</p>
<p>Did anyone out there own K-Rod last year and not win saves?</p>
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		<title>By: Baron Von Vulturewins</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/the-case-for-junky-closers/comment-page-1/#comment-22685</link>
		<dc:creator>Baron Von Vulturewins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=3756#comment-22685</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22683&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Tony&lt;/a&gt;: K-Rod was, of course, a bizarre anomaly last year. (And, in the 7th round, a pretty good value pick.) 

With 62 saves, he was essentially two good closers (32 + 30). Somehow I think it would have been statistically impossible to own K-Rod and not win saves....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-22683" rel="nofollow">Tony</a>: K-Rod was, of course, a bizarre anomaly last year. (And, in the 7th round, a pretty good value pick.) </p>
<p>With 62 saves, he was essentially two good closers (32 + 30). Somehow I think it would have been statistically impossible to own K-Rod and not win saves&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/the-case-for-junky-closers/comment-page-1/#comment-22683</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=3756#comment-22683</guid>
		<description>Referring to the poster about H2H leagues I think they are more important, at least in mine they are....  We have a 32 inning minimum per week, many times guys will get their innings in and Bench their SP&#039;s the rest of the week.  So having to pitch less SP&#039;s and getting your 32 with &quot;safe&quot; closers is helpful.  Now you can do the same thing by grabbing the lower tier closers and middle relievers to get your innings, so it just depends.  I in no way think you need to reach for a papelnuts early on.  I took Krod in the 7th last year, jenks in the 10th, sherrill and some other smucks real late and I smoked thru my league in saves.  Alot depends on your league settings, alot of you are referring to roto leagues i believe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Referring to the poster about H2H leagues I think they are more important, at least in mine they are&#8230;.  We have a 32 inning minimum per week, many times guys will get their innings in and Bench their SP&#8217;s the rest of the week.  So having to pitch less SP&#8217;s and getting your 32 with &#8220;safe&#8221; closers is helpful.  Now you can do the same thing by grabbing the lower tier closers and middle relievers to get your innings, so it just depends.  I in no way think you need to reach for a papelnuts early on.  I took Krod in the 7th last year, jenks in the 10th, sherrill and some other smucks real late and I smoked thru my league in saves.  Alot depends on your league settings, alot of you are referring to roto leagues i believe?</p>
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		<title>By: Rudy Gamble</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/the-case-for-junky-closers/comment-page-1/#comment-22680</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudy Gamble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:52:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=3756#comment-22680</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22628&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nick J&lt;/a&gt;: Hey Nick J - For Tom Tango&#039;s challenge, I&#039;ll be leveraging Point Shares but I have to do several customizations based on his roster requirements and point scoring - the use of points instead of standings makes it a lot easier.  I think the keys will be 1) best balancing production and position scarcity and 2) avoiding injury/playing time risks (think about it - you can&#039;t change your roster and points are generally counting stats....so that Pitching analysis I did will DEFINITELY factor into my equation....)  Should be a lot of fun....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-22628" rel="nofollow">Nick J</a>: Hey Nick J &#8211; For Tom Tango&#8217;s challenge, I&#8217;ll be leveraging Point Shares but I have to do several customizations based on his roster requirements and point scoring &#8211; the use of points instead of standings makes it a lot easier.  I think the keys will be 1) best balancing production and position scarcity and 2) avoiding injury/playing time risks (think about it &#8211; you can&#8217;t change your roster and points are generally counting stats&#8230;.so that Pitching analysis I did will DEFINITELY factor into my equation&#8230;.)  Should be a lot of fun&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Baron Von Vulturewins</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/the-case-for-junky-closers/comment-page-1/#comment-22679</link>
		<dc:creator>Baron Von Vulturewins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=3756#comment-22679</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22584&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Eric W&lt;/a&gt;: They killed Baby Hitler on Lost? I gotta start watching that show.

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22595&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;IowaCubs&lt;/a&gt;: Guilty as charged. Also, I wear a Homburg.

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22604&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Fantasy Ball Junkie&lt;/a&gt;: It&#039;s true that Nathan et al. have better job security, which is a point in their favor. Does the justify reaching for him in the 5th round when you can get a closer like Wilson in the 12th? Given the risk/reward ratio, I don&#039;t think so. (Ask Putz owners from last year.) 

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22608&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;willclarkismyhero&lt;/a&gt;: Good question. Having never played H2H, I&#039;m not familiar with the strategies. I do favor relievers with very high K/9 ratios, though. In fact, I thought the biggest argument in favor of, say, a Lidge or K-Rod would be the extra Ks (i.e. in counting categories, rather than averages categories) -- until I checked the numbers and saw there&#039;s not a huge difference (i.e. 10 to 20 Ks). 

That said, three high-K closers can give you 60-70 extra Ks over three low-K closers, which is significant. But then think of what you&#039;ve had to sacrifice to draft three such guys. (i.e. Your offense would suck.)

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22627&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nick J&lt;/a&gt;: Actually, that&#039;s exactly what it means. A pitcher who only contributes 70 IP to your total isn&#039;t going to have the same effect as one who pitches 210 IP. 

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22615&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;BigFatHippo&lt;/a&gt;: It is true that top &quot;name&quot; closers always have more trade value than guys you grab late, or off the wire, mostly because other owners consider you &quot;lucky&quot; for having landed them. As outlined in my closer strategy, I tend to trade closers early and often, because there&#039;s always a new one to be found for free. (Hello, Jensen Lewis!)

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22666&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;drl25&lt;/a&gt;: He did! (I could go over his whole roster but Yahoo! doesn&#039;t keep all that info from season to season.) 

But the point is this: Even the most stellar reliever is only going to contribute 70 IP. That&#039;s about 1/3 of a topline starter. (See above.) People get too entranced by ERA -- but 210 IP of 3.25 ERA has a much bigger effect on your team ERA than does 70 IP of the same. In fact, the worse your total team ERA, the less someone like Borowski will skew it -- because he becomes less and less of an outlier. 

p.s. all the pitching examples in here are just that, examples. The team in question didn&#039;t actually have Nathan, and Papelbon, and Wilson, and Harang, and Snell. I was just using his team ERA as a baseline from which to do comparisons.
 
@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22653&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;elwood&lt;/a&gt;: Good reasoning, but as anyone will tell you, it&#039;s impossible to predict saves. Even harder than wins. The Yankees have a potent -- i.e. non-saves-friendly offense (i.e. they should theoretically blow a lot of people out) -- yet Mo Rivera does just fine, saves-wise, every year. And no one would have pegged Valverde for the saves lead last year. Or look at F. Cordero year to year. There are too many variables to try and pinpoint how many saves someone is likely to get.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-22584" rel="nofollow">Eric W</a>: They killed Baby Hitler on Lost? I gotta start watching that show.</p>
<p>@<a href="#comment-22595" rel="nofollow">IowaCubs</a>: Guilty as charged. Also, I wear a Homburg.</p>
<p>@<a href="#comment-22604" rel="nofollow">Fantasy Ball Junkie</a>: It&#8217;s true that Nathan et al. have better job security, which is a point in their favor. Does the justify reaching for him in the 5th round when you can get a closer like Wilson in the 12th? Given the risk/reward ratio, I don&#8217;t think so. (Ask Putz owners from last year.) </p>
<p>@<a href="#comment-22608" rel="nofollow">willclarkismyhero</a>: Good question. Having never played H2H, I&#8217;m not familiar with the strategies. I do favor relievers with very high K/9 ratios, though. In fact, I thought the biggest argument in favor of, say, a Lidge or K-Rod would be the extra Ks (i.e. in counting categories, rather than averages categories) &#8212; until I checked the numbers and saw there&#8217;s not a huge difference (i.e. 10 to 20 Ks). </p>
<p>That said, three high-K closers can give you 60-70 extra Ks over three low-K closers, which is significant. But then think of what you&#8217;ve had to sacrifice to draft three such guys. (i.e. Your offense would suck.)</p>
<p>@<a href="#comment-22627" rel="nofollow">Nick J</a>: Actually, that&#8217;s exactly what it means. A pitcher who only contributes 70 IP to your total isn&#8217;t going to have the same effect as one who pitches 210 IP. </p>
<p>@<a href="#comment-22615" rel="nofollow">BigFatHippo</a>: It is true that top &#8220;name&#8221; closers always have more trade value than guys you grab late, or off the wire, mostly because other owners consider you &#8220;lucky&#8221; for having landed them. As outlined in my closer strategy, I tend to trade closers early and often, because there&#8217;s always a new one to be found for free. (Hello, Jensen Lewis!)</p>
<p>@<a href="#comment-22666" rel="nofollow">drl25</a>: He did! (I could go over his whole roster but Yahoo! doesn&#8217;t keep all that info from season to season.) </p>
<p>But the point is this: Even the most stellar reliever is only going to contribute 70 IP. That&#8217;s about 1/3 of a topline starter. (See above.) People get too entranced by ERA &#8212; but 210 IP of 3.25 ERA has a much bigger effect on your team ERA than does 70 IP of the same. In fact, the worse your total team ERA, the less someone like Borowski will skew it &#8212; because he becomes less and less of an outlier. </p>
<p>p.s. all the pitching examples in here are just that, examples. The team in question didn&#8217;t actually have Nathan, and Papelbon, and Wilson, and Harang, and Snell. I was just using his team ERA as a baseline from which to do comparisons.</p>
<p>@<a href="#comment-22653" rel="nofollow">elwood</a>: Good reasoning, but as anyone will tell you, it&#8217;s impossible to predict saves. Even harder than wins. The Yankees have a potent &#8212; i.e. non-saves-friendly offense (i.e. they should theoretically blow a lot of people out) &#8212; yet Mo Rivera does just fine, saves-wise, every year. And no one would have pegged Valverde for the saves lead last year. Or look at F. Cordero year to year. There are too many variables to try and pinpoint how many saves someone is likely to get.</p>
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		<title>By: drl25</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/the-case-for-junky-closers/comment-page-1/#comment-22666</link>
		<dc:creator>drl25</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 07:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>you mentioned a 1,300 ip MAXIMUM. did that team actually reach the maximum with a 3.25 era? i doubt it. last season roy halladay had a 2.78 era over 246 innings. did this guy get another 1,054 innings of sub 3.50 era ball? again i doubt it... but if he did, and if he did actually pitch 1,300 innings, his staff had to be so good as to make your post irrelevant. of course joe borowski cant put THAT bad a dent in you when every other pitcher on your team is an all star.

p.s. - i&#039;m positive this team with the 3.25 didnt waste a draft pick on a top rp before being forced to pitch ian snell every week. ian snell was miles away from that stellar era.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you mentioned a 1,300 ip MAXIMUM. did that team actually reach the maximum with a 3.25 era? i doubt it. last season roy halladay had a 2.78 era over 246 innings. did this guy get another 1,054 innings of sub 3.50 era ball? again i doubt it&#8230; but if he did, and if he did actually pitch 1,300 innings, his staff had to be so good as to make your post irrelevant. of course joe borowski cant put THAT bad a dent in you when every other pitcher on your team is an all star.</p>
<p>p.s. &#8211; i&#8217;m positive this team with the 3.25 didnt waste a draft pick on a top rp before being forced to pitch ian snell every week. ian snell was miles away from that stellar era.</p>
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