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	<title>Comments on: Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Mark McGwire &#8211; 2009 Hall of Fame Nominations</title>
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	<description>Fantasy Baseball Advice</description>
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		<title>By: Rudy Gamble</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/jim-rice-hall-of-fame/#comment-106839</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudy Gamble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=2492#comment-106839</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-106804&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jay Geuder&lt;/a&gt;: Thanks for commenting.  I&#039;ll admit that my analysis is far from perfect and that I&#039;ve learned some since writing this post,

My favorite source now for player&#039;s career value is Sean Smith&#039;s WAR at baseballprojection.com.  It account for total value including defense so I consider it better than Runs Created.  Here is the comparison of Reggie Smith vs. Jim Rice:

Reggie Smith - http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/s/smitr101.htm
63.1 career wins above replacement (89th overall)

Top 5 seasons (28.2):
1977 - 6.3
1970 - 6.0
1974 - 5.6
1971 - 5.5
1978 - 4.8

Jim Rice - http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/r/ricej001.htm
41.5 career wins above replacement (258th overall)

Top 5 seasons (28.0):
1978 - 7.0
1986 - 5.9
1979 - 5.7
1983 - 5.1
1977 - 4.3

Here are the other players&#039; WAR
Dwight Evans - 61.7 (96th overall)
Albert Belle - 37.1 (318th overall)
Andre Dawson - 56.8 (130th overall)

Of the five, Belle&#039;s is the biggest surprise and is driven mainly by his short career and bad fielding (his top 5 peak was 29.6).

So while my initial analysis has its flaws, I think the points I was trying to make re: Jim Rice and Reggie Smith still hold true.  It also looks like Rice&#039;s MVP votes were probably misplace some of those years (even his fantastic 1978 season when he won the MVP, Guidry has a sizable advantage in WAR - 8.5 to 7.0)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-106804" rel="nofollow">Jay Geuder</a>: Thanks for commenting.  I&#8217;ll admit that my analysis is far from perfect and that I&#8217;ve learned some since writing this post,</p>
<p>My favorite source now for player&#8217;s career value is Sean Smith&#8217;s WAR at baseballprojection.com.  It account for total value including defense so I consider it better than Runs Created.  Here is the comparison of Reggie Smith vs. Jim Rice:</p>
<p>Reggie Smith &#8211; <a href="http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/s/smitr101.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/s/smitr101.htm</a><br />
63.1 career wins above replacement (89th overall)</p>
<p>Top 5 seasons (28.2):<br />
1977 &#8211; 6.3<br />
1970 &#8211; 6.0<br />
1974 &#8211; 5.6<br />
1971 &#8211; 5.5<br />
1978 &#8211; 4.8</p>
<p>Jim Rice &#8211; <a href="http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/r/ricej001.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/r/ricej001.htm</a><br />
41.5 career wins above replacement (258th overall)</p>
<p>Top 5 seasons (28.0):<br />
1978 &#8211; 7.0<br />
1986 &#8211; 5.9<br />
1979 &#8211; 5.7<br />
1983 &#8211; 5.1<br />
1977 &#8211; 4.3</p>
<p>Here are the other players&#8217; WAR<br />
Dwight Evans &#8211; 61.7 (96th overall)<br />
Albert Belle &#8211; 37.1 (318th overall)<br />
Andre Dawson &#8211; 56.8 (130th overall)</p>
<p>Of the five, Belle&#8217;s is the biggest surprise and is driven mainly by his short career and bad fielding (his top 5 peak was 29.6).</p>
<p>So while my initial analysis has its flaws, I think the points I was trying to make re: Jim Rice and Reggie Smith still hold true.  It also looks like Rice&#8217;s MVP votes were probably misplace some of those years (even his fantastic 1978 season when he won the MVP, Guidry has a sizable advantage in WAR &#8211; 8.5 to 7.0)</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Geuder</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/jim-rice-hall-of-fame/#comment-106804</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Geuder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 13:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=2492#comment-106804</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rice&#039;s 6 MVP Top 10&#039;s is tops on your list, and he did it in only 12 seasons.  THAT is a significant level of dominance.  You show it, but fail to point out it&#039;s merit.  He&#039;s also tops in plate appearances.  I like Reggie Smith as much as the next guy, but when you can have Rice&#039;s ability, and get him up there a hundred more times a year, guess which one I want.  You present numbers, but only highlight what you want, that&#039;s the beauty of a blog, I suppose.

You also don&#039;t adjust seasonal averages or counting numbers for era.  I consider that a MUCH bigger factor than park factor.  Hitters adjusted their style to the ball park in which they played half of their games.  Park factor is not insignificant, pretty much everyone hit better in fenway, but adjustment for era is how determine how a player stacked up against his peers.  It&#039;s pretty easy to do, and when pretty much no one is putting up gaudy number in Allen or Rice&#039;s time, but everyone is during Belle and McGwire&#039;s time, it&#039;s easy to see the significance.

I make park adjustments, but I cut them in half.  I also make era adjustments.  It sounds like you&#039;d like to annoint Reggie Smith but if you look at amount of &quot;peak&quot; seasons, the average proximity to the yearly Runs Created leader (a lower number is better) and OPS adjusted for era, here&#039;s how they&#039;d shake out:

Peaks:
Rice (7)
Evans (7)
Belle (6)
Dawson (2)
Smith (2)

RC Leader Proximity:
Rice (38)
Belle (40)
Smith (52)
Evans (53)
Dawson (54)

Normlized OPS:
Belle (905)
Smith (899)
Rice (892)
Evans (869)
Dawson (833)

You&#039;re entitled to vieweing things as you see fit.  But be aware that other smart fans, who might prioritize in a different way, would shine a totally different light on things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rice&#8217;s 6 MVP Top 10&#8242;s is tops on your list, and he did it in only 12 seasons.  THAT is a significant level of dominance.  You show it, but fail to point out it&#8217;s merit.  He&#8217;s also tops in plate appearances.  I like Reggie Smith as much as the next guy, but when you can have Rice&#8217;s ability, and get him up there a hundred more times a year, guess which one I want.  You present numbers, but only highlight what you want, that&#8217;s the beauty of a blog, I suppose.</p>
<p>You also don&#8217;t adjust seasonal averages or counting numbers for era.  I consider that a MUCH bigger factor than park factor.  Hitters adjusted their style to the ball park in which they played half of their games.  Park factor is not insignificant, pretty much everyone hit better in fenway, but adjustment for era is how determine how a player stacked up against his peers.  It&#8217;s pretty easy to do, and when pretty much no one is putting up gaudy number in Allen or Rice&#8217;s time, but everyone is during Belle and McGwire&#8217;s time, it&#8217;s easy to see the significance.</p>
<p>I make park adjustments, but I cut them in half.  I also make era adjustments.  It sounds like you&#8217;d like to annoint Reggie Smith but if you look at amount of &#8220;peak&#8221; seasons, the average proximity to the yearly Runs Created leader (a lower number is better) and OPS adjusted for era, here&#8217;s how they&#8217;d shake out:</p>
<p>Peaks:<br />
Rice (7)<br />
Evans (7)<br />
Belle (6)<br />
Dawson (2)<br />
Smith (2)</p>
<p>RC Leader Proximity:<br />
Rice (38)<br />
Belle (40)<br />
Smith (52)<br />
Evans (53)<br />
Dawson (54)</p>
<p>Normlized OPS:<br />
Belle (905)<br />
Smith (899)<br />
Rice (892)<br />
Evans (869)<br />
Dawson (833)</p>
<p>You&#8217;re entitled to vieweing things as you see fit.  But be aware that other smart fans, who might prioritize in a different way, would shine a totally different light on things.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudy Gamble</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/jim-rice-hall-of-fame/#comment-21069</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudy Gamble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=2492#comment-21069</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-21068&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Alex Tepperman&lt;/a&gt;: Funny stuff.  Good luck w/ the new blog!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-21068" rel="nofollow">Alex Tepperman</a>: Funny stuff.  Good luck w/ the new blog!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Alex Tepperman</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/jim-rice-hall-of-fame/#comment-21068</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Tepperman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:58:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=2492#comment-21068</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nice article.

Jim Rice getting elected isn&#039;t the end of the world, but it&#039;s pretty silly.

Come check out my own interpretation:
http://sportingschmooze.blogspot.com/2009/01/joe-rogan-elected-to-mlb-hall-of-fame.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article.</p>
<p>Jim Rice getting elected isn&#8217;t the end of the world, but it&#8217;s pretty silly.</p>
<p>Come check out my own interpretation:<br />
<a href="http://sportingschmooze.blogspot.com/2009/01/joe-rogan-elected-to-mlb-hall-of-fame.html" rel="nofollow">http://sportingschmooze.blogspot.com/2009/01/joe-rogan-elected-to-mlb-hall-of-fame.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rudy Gamble</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/jim-rice-hall-of-fame/#comment-19612</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudy Gamble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=2492#comment-19612</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-19610&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;IowaCubs&lt;/a&gt;: Thanks Iowa.  I knew you&#039;d be good for a solid argument on Santo&#039;s behalf.  If I make it through my Starting Pitcher analysis (which is looking awesome) and Middle Infielder, I&#039;ll do one covering 3Bs (and eventually Catchers)....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-19610" rel="nofollow">IowaCubs</a>: Thanks Iowa.  I knew you&#8217;d be good for a solid argument on Santo&#8217;s behalf.  If I make it through my Starting Pitcher analysis (which is looking awesome) and Middle Infielder, I&#8217;ll do one covering 3Bs (and eventually Catchers)&#8230;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: IowaCubs</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/jim-rice-hall-of-fame/#comment-19610</link>
		<dc:creator>IowaCubs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=2492#comment-19610</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-19595&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Eric W&lt;/a&gt;: 
@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-19605&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rudy Gamble&lt;/a&gt;: 
Ron Santo was the second of his kind: a power hitting third baseman.  Only Brooks Robinson before him had more than 250 hr at that position, leading the way for the likes of Mike Schmidt and the modern day Chipper Jones-type.  

--5 time Gold Glove winner
--9x All-Star
--Named by Bill James as one of the 100 best players of all time
--2,254 hits, 342hr, .826 career OPS, 774 XBH... all in a pitcher&#039;s era and playing mostly in the hitter unfriendly NL East.

Sure he had Ernie Banks and Billy Williams hitting behind him, but if it hadn&#039;t been for the diabetes that sidelined him for about 10% of his career, he probably would have gotten those 2500 hits and 400hr and he&#039;d already be in the HOF.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-19595" rel="nofollow">Eric W</a>:<br />
@<a href="#comment-19605" rel="nofollow">Rudy Gamble</a>:<br />
Ron Santo was the second of his kind: a power hitting third baseman.  Only Brooks Robinson before him had more than 250 hr at that position, leading the way for the likes of Mike Schmidt and the modern day Chipper Jones-type.  </p>
<p>&#8211;5 time Gold Glove winner<br />
&#8211;9x All-Star<br />
&#8211;Named by Bill James as one of the 100 best players of all time<br />
&#8211;2,254 hits, 342hr, .826 career OPS, 774 XBH&#8230; all in a pitcher&#8217;s era and playing mostly in the hitter unfriendly NL East.</p>
<p>Sure he had Ernie Banks and Billy Williams hitting behind him, but if it hadn&#8217;t been for the diabetes that sidelined him for about 10% of his career, he probably would have gotten those 2500 hits and 400hr and he&#8217;d already be in the HOF.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudy Gamble</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/jim-rice-hall-of-fame/#comment-19605</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudy Gamble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=2492#comment-19605</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-19595&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Eric W&lt;/a&gt;:  Ron Santo certainly has a good case.  I haven&#039;t analyzed 3B, though, to say definitively whether I&#039;d vote for him.  But I bet IowaCubs would :)

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-19601&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jimmy ray&lt;/a&gt;: I&#039;m considering two more of these articles - one covering middle infielders and one covering pitchers.  I try to attack these open-minded - I certainly didn&#039;t go into this one thinking that Dick Allen and Reggie Smith were going to pop to the top.  So I don&#039;t have a strong opinion yet on Trammell/Whitaker except that I don&#039;t see how both shouldn&#039;t be on the ballot.  As for Morris, I&#039;ll give it some thought but I don&#039;t see it.  The one stat that is glaringly mediocre is his ERA/WHIP numbers.  4.08/1.296 is really not impressive.  His ERA+ (adjusted against the league) was 105.  The stats for seem to say he was a good to very good pitcher who pitched on some very good teams (remember, that Toronto and Minnesota cores one championships w/o him).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-19595" rel="nofollow">Eric W</a>:  Ron Santo certainly has a good case.  I haven&#8217;t analyzed 3B, though, to say definitively whether I&#8217;d vote for him.  But I bet IowaCubs would <img src='http://razzball.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>@<a href="#comment-19601" rel="nofollow">Jimmy ray</a>: I&#8217;m considering two more of these articles &#8211; one covering middle infielders and one covering pitchers.  I try to attack these open-minded &#8211; I certainly didn&#8217;t go into this one thinking that Dick Allen and Reggie Smith were going to pop to the top.  So I don&#8217;t have a strong opinion yet on Trammell/Whitaker except that I don&#8217;t see how both shouldn&#8217;t be on the ballot.  As for Morris, I&#8217;ll give it some thought but I don&#8217;t see it.  The one stat that is glaringly mediocre is his ERA/WHIP numbers.  4.08/1.296 is really not impressive.  His ERA+ (adjusted against the league) was 105.  The stats for seem to say he was a good to very good pitcher who pitched on some very good teams (remember, that Toronto and Minnesota cores one championships w/o him).</p>
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		<title>By: Jimmy ray</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/jim-rice-hall-of-fame/#comment-19601</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimmy ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=2492#comment-19601</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m a tiger fan and there are three players from the 84 tigers that belong but get no love, jack Morris, Lou whitaker and alan tramble. Sweet Lou and tram belong on stats alone when you compare them to players already in the hall. the problem with the HOF is the voters.How is ozzie smith a first ballot hall of famer and tram barely gets any votes? Is it because he didn&#039;t skip onto the field and tumble like a cheerleader? Pitching wise, many voters are just to stupid to realize that the Criteria has changed for pitching. All the pitchers now will have played their whole carrer with a lower mound, hence a higher era. Morris also played his whole carreer in the DH era! he was on 3 championship team and threw perhaps the greatest game ever in the WS ( a 10 inning shout out!) Dawson is the only guy I would vote in from your list.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a tiger fan and there are three players from the 84 tigers that belong but get no love, jack Morris, Lou whitaker and alan tramble. Sweet Lou and tram belong on stats alone when you compare them to players already in the hall. the problem with the HOF is the voters.How is ozzie smith a first ballot hall of famer and tram barely gets any votes? Is it because he didn&#8217;t skip onto the field and tumble like a cheerleader? Pitching wise, many voters are just to stupid to realize that the Criteria has changed for pitching. All the pitchers now will have played their whole carrer with a lower mound, hence a higher era. Morris also played his whole carreer in the DH era! he was on 3 championship team and threw perhaps the greatest game ever in the WS ( a 10 inning shout out!) Dawson is the only guy I would vote in from your list.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric W</title>
		<link>http://razzball.com/jim-rice-hall-of-fame/#comment-19595</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://razzball.com/?p=2492#comment-19595</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[of all the eligible players Ron Santo is the most deserving of a entrance to Cooperstown unless you consider pete rose and shoeless joe eligible]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>of all the eligible players Ron Santo is the most deserving of a entrance to Cooperstown unless you consider pete rose and shoeless joe eligible</p>
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