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To protest a trade or not? Hmmm… How about, do you have a vagina or not? I keed. I’ve protested trades in the past, but I’m a convert. Now I believe everyone is entitled to manage their teams any way they’d like. If someone wants to trade Prince Fielder for Nomar, that should be protested, but only because the Fielder owner is obviously a drunk and needs a Dylan McKay-like intervention. But 99% of trades should be allowed with protests simply used to protect the integrity of a league. When someone makes a trade you don’t agree with, you can bitch and moan, but it’s their team. What else are you going to do? Tell them to drop Matt Morris for Scherzer? Tell them Cristian Guzman may not be the best utility guy? You can’t manage their team for them, so why should you be allowed to tell them who to trade?

I’ve never traded Asdrubal Cabrera for Matt Holliday to a foreign exchange student who thought fantasy baseball in some way involved girls. Yet I’ve been on the veto side of quite a few trades. It sucks, especially when you know you’re getting vetoed simply because you’re in first place and you’ve just made your team better with a completely fair trade. Last year when I got Reyes for Vlad, protest flags flew immediately. Was the trade in my favor? Well, I try not to do too many trades that aren’t, so, yeah. Was it completely lopsided and shouldn’t have been allowed? The guy needed an OF and I needed steals. When I traded Vlad, he had 11 home runs, 46 RBIs and was batting .355 through two months. Unfortunately (for the other guy), Vlad ended up hitting just 16 home runs the rest of the way, but that’s not my fault. That’s my good fortune. The trade went through and I won the league partly because of it.

In related news in the life of Grey (cuz you care!), there was a trade in my ‘pert league that sent Johan Santana to a team for Granderson and Ervin Santana. I was the first person to post a message on the board. I wrote, “Seriously? No… Wait. Seriously?” My “Seriously” soliloquy sparked a controversy, or I was simply the first person to see the trade and comment. Either way, the ‘perts came out blazing. I don’t think it’s my place to list the parties involved or what was said exactly, but I’ll give you the gist:

“This is collusion!”
“How dare you, sir? Collusion would take me actually knowing someone else in this league!”
“Collusion – delusion. It shouldn’t be allowed.”
“My good man, I made the trade and I think it’s fair.”
I chimed in again, “I just thought it was a bad trade on (the team owner who gave away Johan)’s part, but I never thought collusion. Honestly, I don’t even think there should be a protest option. If someone wants to do trade, they should be allowed.”
“Yeah, the trade sucks. But I guess there was no collusion.”
“Yeah, no collusion. Just a bad trade.”
“I still think the trade should be overruled because the trade sucks.”
This last part I will post directly what was written because it made me laugh, but I won’t mention the owner (but he’s free to chime in the comments). “I will weigh in a say that the trade is lopsided, but every deal is. Hey, if (the owner who got Johan) thinks he got a good deal and is happy with that crap for Johan Santana, then (the other owner) needs to be a car salesman! I’ll go on record right now and say Ervin Santana and Curtis Granderson are not going to be the answer (the new Granderson owner) is looking for. And, when it is all over, he will have traded the top pitcher in all of baseball for a SP with a 3-year average of a 4.84 ERA and a .263 OPP BA and a hitter that nets you about a .280/.344/.496 line with 35 steals. Hardly worth it! Oh, just because your child wants to walk into on coming traffic, doesn’t mean you let him for the betterment of society. Trades have a veto button for a reason. Most of the time people need to be protected from themselves more than they want to believe.”

So there’s the gist and a decent argument in favor of the protest button. I disagree with most protests (this crappy trade included), but there ya go. You can accuse us ‘perts of a lot of things, but dispassionate should not be one of them.

  1. I am the owner who said “Most of the time people need to be protected from themselves more than they want to believe.” I am the lead fantasy writer for the Indiana Pacers, Utah Jazz, Dallas Mavericks, Cincinnati Bengals and St. Louis Rams and know a bad deal when I see it. Ervin Santana is garbage and everyone knows it. Granderson is not a “stud”, but he is an above average OF with good steals. Johan is a certified stud that went for crap when you look at what he brings to the table.

    He didn’t get the wool pulled over his eyes, he got the whole damn sheep!

  2. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @James Morris: I agree with you a hundred percent. If we can get the owner who traded Johan away to admit to sniffing glue or huffing, then there’s grounds for an overturning. Otherwise I think we gotta live with it.

  3. Off-White says:
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    Thoughts on this trade Pence & Sherrill for Putz & Mcgowan? Also overall thoughts on the players involved…

    I am thinking Pence while good won’t produce like last year. I think Putz is a relative buy low candidate as well as Mcgowan, but big Mc’s walks are troubling. Sherrill should come to earth along the with rest of the O’s.

  4. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @Off-White: I think McGowan’s headed for a bust. His walks are troubling, as you said, and his innings were very high last year. He may breakdown.

    The falloff from Sherrill to Putz is huge. There’s no sign that Putz will reinjure himself (that, of course, is not to say he won’t). I still don’t buy Sherrill will be anywhere near the league leaders in saves come the end of the year. He had a small hiccup yesterday and a huge one against the Yanks on the 20th.

    Pence looks like he’s having sophomore struggles, but he has a power speed combination that makes him a decent buy low at this point.

  5. alek says:
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    I’m way ahead of the pack in power categories, and will likely remain that way with or without this trade. 5×5 roto league, 8 teams, big rosters. That being said, I’m considering trading Ryan Howard for Chone Figgins (for steals/average) and either Edinson Volquez or Dan Haren. I don’t want to “sell low” on Howard, because I know he’s a slow starter, and his numbers will recover. What’s your take?

    By the way, I’m in 6th in steals, but 1st in HR and RBI. Other owners standpoint is that 40-50 Steals can be just as valuable as 40-50 HR. Opinion?

  6. alek says:
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    I should add to my prior comment that this is a keeper league.

  7. Hank

    Hank says:
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    Damn, what a topical post, something similar just happened in one of my leagues…for the second year in a row…with the same two managers! Here’s this year’s deal:
    Ryan Howard(1st) for Jim Thome(13th), C. Wang(10th), and Tim Wakefield(FA)! Talk about shitty deal. To make matter worse, last year the same two managers brokered a deal that exchanged Sammy Sosa and Dan Wheeler (both undrafted) for Alfonso Soriano (1st) and Mariano Rivera (3rd).

    You might think that maybe this year’s Howard trade is the one manager making up for last year’s robbery, but it’s not. The same manager getting hosed last year is yet again fleeced like a 15 year old girl from the FLDS compound in Texas.

    I tend to agree that if someone wants to make a bad trade (or is blissfully ignorant) they should be free to do so. Part of being a manager in fantasy and real sports is taking advantage of other manager’s tendencies, valuations, and mistakes. The only problem is what happens if managers stop trying to make their teams better and instead collude with another manager, and how can you tell the difference between a bad trade and collusive one?

    It appears that veto/protest systems are common but I find their application and usefulness limited. For example, with out fail in the leagues I participate in (all of which use a majority veto system) trades rarely go through without any objection. Whether its jokingly, in honor of general dissent, or in spite, someone seems to always feel the need to veto.

    Maybe a solution would be limiting the amount of vetoes/protests managers had so they’d value them more, hopefully leading to more rational analysis of trades. It would also help to show owners who are engaging in questionable trades that there trade is questionable!

  8. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @alek: It’s not an unfair trade, but there’s no way I do it. I’d need Reyes, Crawford, Hanley for Howard and one of those pitchers doesn’t push it over the top, no matter how much I like Haren.

  9. alek says:
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    Thanks for the advice. I will avoid this offer. By the way, this is my first post, but I’ve been reading your column for a while. As always, great work.

  10. Rudy’s Notes/POV:
    1) I was in Grey’s league when he traded Reyes for Vlad and didn’t protest. I only thought it was BS b/c he traded with this guy he brought into the league that made a bunch of move that helped Grey and hurt me. This trade. He picked Carpenter before Peavy in the draft (!!!) who won Grey the title. This guy somehow ‘accidentally’ drafted Brandon Phillips before me even though he had 3 middle infielders drafted and had other needs….ok, i’m done bitching about that forever….

    2) Johan for Granderson and Ervin = Johan for Granderson b/c Ervin Santana doesn’t qualify in my book as better than a free agent. My pre-season rankings have Johan being the #1 ranked player in fantasy baseball at 10.5 point shares (he’d add 10.5 points to an average team in a 12 team MLB league) while Granderson was #75 at 1.59 point shares. (Ervin was #359 at -4.90 points). So, in a dorky math way, yeah, this trade sucks.

    3) Agree with Grey – ESPECIALLY b/c this is an expert league. If you want to be a baby about it, take that guy off your blogroll or mock him on your site. It’s too slippery of a slope once you start vetoing trades…

    4) Putz/McGowan vs. Pence/Sherrill – Tough one. Putz is the best player in the deal but who’s to say Sherrill can’t match him at least in saves. On point shares, it adds up to 5.07 for Putz and -1.69 for McGowan vs. 1.75 for Pence and about -1.5 points for Sherrill (assuming 30+ saves). Based on that, I’ll take Putz and hope McGowan makes it a slam dunk trade…

    5) Ok, Howard for Figgins and Haren (Volquez is too risky to consider). Howard is worth 3.7 points in a 10-team league (didn’t do it for 8 team). Figgins is worth about .6 points if he’s 2B eligible. If you have to start him at 3B or 1B/3B, he kills you since there’s so much power there. Haren is worth 2.84 points. So it nets out to a pretty fair trade but, based on name recognition, feels like you might be able to get more. Maybe a 2 for 3 trade could be made?

  11. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @Hank: See the Slammin’ Sammy deal would’ve made me refuse the following year to be in a league with the guy who got hosed. He just doesn’t seem like he knows what he’s doing a.k.a if you gotta piss, get out of the pool.

    This… “Maybe a solution would be limiting the amount of vetoes/protests managers had so they’d value them more, hopefully leading to more rational analysis of trades.” …is actually genius and I would be all for that. Because, like you say, many times, people just veto a deal out of spite. Your suggestion would help alleviate that.

  12. @Hank – we had one guy in our league who made dumb trades. we traded him out of the league at the end of the year for a competent player to be named later.

  13. Hank

    Hank says:
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    @Grey: I definitely thought about bailing out of the league, and there were other more dubious happenings that would probably force most other people out of the league as well. I even told my self I wasn’t going to care and just play for fun, maybe draft an entire team of Reds players just for shits, but draft day rolled around and I have a competition in me. I want no one else to succeed. I hate most people….wait oops I think I had a temporary DD Lewis fit of insanity, anyway I couldn’t just phone it in, and instead I drafted a pretty solid team. So, yeah, I think someone peed in the pool but it was one of those little shits with water wings in the shallow end. I think I’ll be ok out here in the deeps.

  14. Hank

    Hank says:
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    @rudygamble: That’s a good idea for sure, I guess it’s not always that simple though, or easy for us to find people interested in competitive fantasy baseball. This particular league likes to do live in person drafts and the pool of competent, interested fantasy managers in Idaho seems is rather small. I guess I need to make more internet friends, and join some leagues online with competitive players.

  15. chuck says:
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    first of all, phenomenal site. this is my first year playing fantasy baseball, and was wondering if i just made a whack trade offer. i need pitching, so I offered prince fielder and yovani gallardo for brad penny and scott kazmir. i should also add that its a standard Y! 5×5 league, and Ive got derrek lee and adrian gonzales, and could plug miguel cabrera into first and throw evan longoria in at 3rd. this d-bag made it clear that he wouldn’t trade peavy, and all these 1b on my bench are killing me. any thoughts??

  16. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @chuck: I’d withdraw that offer quickfast. You can do much better for Fielder and YoGa. Hope you get it back before the other team accepts.

  17. chuck says:
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    phew. i was almost ‘that guy’ everyone’s talking about.

  18. damn, we got a few first-time commenters on this thread. nice. i like YoGa more than Penny and Kazmir. and I’d dangle Adrian Gonzalez before I’d dangle Prince Fielder (never thought I’d say dangle and prince fielder in the same sentence)…

  19. Hank

    Hank says:
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    @chuck: I agree with Grey on this one, pull out! Fielder will probably get you less right now than Lee, I don’t believe in selling low. Maybe try sending some feelers out there for pitchers with less popular names like John Maine, Oliver Perez, Brett Myers, Javier Vazquez, Zach Greinke, Jair Jurrjens, Chris Young, etc. Maybe you can trade Gonzalez for one or two of them, I like fielder over Gonzalez long term, especially b/c you already are getting average out of Lee and Cabrera.

  20. chuck says:
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    yeah, well as i was dangling prince fielder, someone was dangling wang right in my face. seriously. ive had fielder on the block for a week now, and thats honestly the best offer i’ve gotten. is there any pitcher that would be a fair 1 for 1 trade? and whats with people offering their waiver wire pickups for top-tier players?

  21. chuck says:
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    oh, and btw… ive already got my claim in for scherzer. thanks for the heads-up.

  22. john says:
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    once Yahoo sees the destruction and mayhem of the Aryan race, what do you think of dropping Mr.Struggling Manny Parra for the waiver on the Nazi?

  23. Hank

    Hank says:
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    @chuck: Have you tried making offers yourself, instead of just having players on the block? I find it more useful to send out offers (make sure it’s something you’d want, just in case) to other managers to see where there value lie. Often times they’ll counter and you’ll see where they are and what if might take to get a deal done. If someone rejects your trade without countering ask why. Also make sure you look at what teams need 1B and make offers to them. Maybe you know this already, I dunno, just some things I have learned.

  24. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @chuck: Yeah, I’d avoid leaguemates that dangle their Wang in my face. I’d see what’s the best you can do for Adrian Gonzalez. I’m very high on Wainwright. You should be able to pull that off.

    Focus on teams that are weak at first and see what pitchers they have. Maybe your leaguemates want too much, if that’s the case, just don’t trade with them.

    @john: Wow, that’s tough. Parra has struggled, but he’s got a spot in the rotation (for now). You have no one else to drop?

  25. john says:
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    I’ve got Marmol backing up Wood, and no-production Billy boy. Everyone else is a starter or closer or gonna be dropped to make room for the Flyin Hawaiian. I’m thinking you’re gonna want me dropping Billy boy (and I don’t think I would get anything in a trade for him, my leaguemates aren’t the trading type unless its big name deals)

  26. chuck says:
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    funny you mention wainright. he’s owned by the same person i offered fielder to for linecum… and got rejected. ill put in an offer and see what happens. thanks.

  27. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @john: It’s a risky move, but one that could pay huge dividends. I say go for it.

    @chuck: Good luck.

  28. I love how people think the round they drafted a player in has any significance to the opposing manager they are trading with…it’s even better when people within the league chime in like they know what’s best for the managers making the trade.
    The bottom line is you make a trade to make your team better, and everyone else is pissing and moaning because their team stands pat. Grey in his summary of the trade left out tons of vital info regarding the trade, and it’s quite impossible for anyone outside of the league or even outside the two trading managers to offer an intelligent critique of it.

  29. john says:
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    yea, i mean right now butler is really just a fill in player for markakis, matsui and victorino…so other than OBP he’s been close to worthless for me

  30. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @SportsHubris: Just about everyone in the league, outside of the two trading teams, had a problem with the trade and they were able to see the two teams.

  31. Wow! Can we deal with the facts please Grey? You say just about everyone, but only 3 out of the 15 teams had a negative comment. Please if you guys are holding league conventions without me send me an invite…if not please be truthful in your comments.

  32. Grey

    Grey says:
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    It’s pretty obvious why you’re defending the trade.

  33. Yes it is, what isn’t obvious is why you can’t give a truthful recount/criticism of that trade. You’ve shown your disdain for Granderson many times, and not everyone agrees with you that “Ervin Santana is garbage and everyone knows it”

    I mean you went through all that trouble to post a whole story around the trade, and fail to do it honestly. Of course I’m going to defend it…who wouldn’t?

  34. john says:
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    me thinks someone is a bit defensive….i’m all about the questions today Grey, sorry to dump it all on you at once, who’s better offensively at the end of the year, Double E or DropSheffFor Carlos Quentin?

  35. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @SportsHubris: Yes, I don’t like Granderson or Ervin Santana, that makes my recount biased? A grade school kid could tell you that you can get more for Johan.

  36. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @john: I’m not sure I follow. Are you saying both Quentin and EdEn are on waivers? I want both of them over Sheff.

  37. john says:
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    Double E is my Util, and Quentin is on waivers..just wondering if its wise to swap them or just stay put.

  38. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @john: I’d lose Sheff for Quentin. I wouldn’t drop Edwin for him.

  39. yeah you formed an opinion than recounted the trade through the eyes of that opinion. That and the recount was paraphrased almost entirely incorrectly. Then you flat out lie to me…I’d have to say shotty job all around. I don’t know how you can sleep at night…hopefully it isn’t with those grade school kids you make trades with.

  40. john says:
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    Yea, I don’t have Sheff…I took your advice awhile ago on that one. Thanks :)

  41. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @SportsHubris: How about I recount this comment exchange?

    “Blah blah blah that trade was fair!”
    “Not really.”
    “Blah blah blah fair!”
    “Nope.”
    “Blah blah blah liar!”
    “Comment recount.”

  42. Now maybe you do a lot of trading with grade schoolers because you act like one on the internet…I’ll just be content with the fact you were so irrevocably wrong that you had to respond with Blah Blah Blah…next time you post an entry involving one of my trades try to make it somewhat factual I’d appreciate it. “Just about everyone in the league….” (by which I mean just me) agrees with me this entry smacked of douchebaggery.

  43. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @SportsHubris: I think you mean, this entry smacked a doucebag.

  44. Russ says:
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    Great post, Grey. I’m of the mind that “it’s your team, you do what you want.” I don’t know the future and neither do the other owners. I’m just waiting for the day that I can throw a shit-fit when I get a trade vetoed and the player I was forced to keep breaks his leg the next day. Are the people who voted against the trade going to get together to send me a suitable replacement?

    We each have our own team for a reason.

  45. sportshubris –
    what’s your problem? you came out better in this trade. there is no way to analyze it at this moment and come to a different conclusion. grey basically stated this and said he wouldn’t veto.

    so what gives? let it go. enjoy having johan knowing you did a fair trade (fair = they accepted it and/or requested it). don’t even try to defend it….you won. no argument to be made…

    rudy

  46. Are you saying fantasy baseball is not a good way to meet girls? Shit. Why have I been wasting all these years hoping to get lucky on ESPN fantasy boards? Did you see that Dateline NBC episode with Karabell? He even wore that fake mustache you photoshopped on him. He swears he was doing nothing wrong. He only stopped over the house to advise a 14 year old girl to draft Brad Wilkerson for his monster contract year. I’m buying that.

  47. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @Herb Urban: That wasn’t Karabell that was Clemens. And that wasn’t just any 14 year old girl, she’s a country music STAR.

  48. One of my biggest pet peeves, and again it has reared its ugly head, is determining the level of success in a trade situation without looking at it from a detailed team perspective. Without knowing the relative strengths and weaknesses of the parties involved how does one assess a winner and loser? Yes I’m the guy that ended up with Granderson and Ervin and am very happy with those results. My team was stranded in purgatory in the sb, runs scored categories and had what I consider to be strength and depth in pitching. Several comments have been directed towards I could have done better. My reply would be how? The players I would need would be the Reyes,Hanley,and Sizemore’s of the world and realistically the teams owning those players need the runs scored/sb potential and aren’t in a real selling mode just to satisfy the week areas of my team. Granderson batting in a lead off capacity for the Tigers has the potential as proven last year to be a Top 10 producer in runs scored and should toss in 20-25 stolen bases with 20 or so home runs. Hell, ain’t that just what the doctor ordered! I’m a believer that Ervin has the potential to very easily revert back towards that 2006 level of play and have been saying such since witnessing his winter ball exploits. Gimme a break guys, he had a horrible 2007 but does that mean at 25 he doesn’t have the potential to put up numbers that he has already proven capable of. To quote that Ervin has a 4.84 career average is ludicrous. I’m not trading for the 2007 model here and those stats, I’m trading for the current Ervin and the production I perceive he is capable of over the balance of this year. Back in June of 2006 I was involved in the following trade. Jimmy Rollins and Mark Buehrle for Bobby Crosby and Trevor Hoffman. Who won this deal guys?

  49. Grey

    Grey says:
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    @Tim aka the glue sniffing other party: Thanks for chiming in, Tim. I appreciate you owning up to the trade. I still think you could’ve done better, but I’ve actually become a fan of Granderson since this trade and I hope he wins the MVP.

  50. Todd says:
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    I’m in the league where this trade was made and I didn’t feel it was that lopsided. Tim needed some offensive help because his offense blows chunks (typical of a Tim team) but his pitching was strong. He traded his excess for what he needed. I’ve made plenty of trades that on the surface looked lopsided, but served to better my team in the long run.

  51. SportsHubris says:
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    Rudy-

    I was mainly upset with the inaccuracies of the post not with his take on the trade. Grey wasn’t the one who insinuated collusion nor did I say he attempted to veto. What he did do is portray a scenario involving me incorrectly then through his comments he attempted to justify those falsehoods. A number of people in the league responded positively to the trade yet this entire entry is nothing but negative. His main point of not vetoing trades gets lost by the blatant misrepresentation.
    I don’t have a problem, but I do have the option of responding don’t I? I’m happy with the results of the trade and I’ll consider the matter resolved until later in the season…look forward to your future, more accurate, articles.

  52. hey sportshubris –
    ok. i can’t speak to the inaccuracies in the retelling of events so i totally support all sides voicing their opinion.

    i thought i sensed the natural fantasy baseball reflex to aggressively defend one’s trade as fair when the predominant opinion was that it favors one’s self. i remember defending my Ryan Freel & Kevin Mench for Jose Reyes trade in April 2006 (upheld by ESPN!) while i came up with a whole host of arguments, the objective opinion was that i got the better end of the trade (not coincidentally, we didn’t invite that guy back the next year).

    congrats on the trade. while the underdog-lover part of me would like to root for tim on this one (and ervin ‘magic’ santana sure looked good yesterday), i have Johan on too many teams to hope for anything more than a win-win trade… :)

    rudy

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